Sunday, January 21, 2007

Illegal Construction Jobs Dwindling

Here at Paradise Lost, many have predicted that the collapse of the real estate bubble in Florida would result in the loss of jobs for construction workers. Not only that, the prediction was that since a large portion of the construction work has been done by illegal labor, those job losses wouldn't be reflected in the unemployment numbers. Courtesy of the Herald-Tribune, some light has now been cast on the subject.

'With the huge drop-off in the state's formerly hot housing market, Latinos are leaving Southwest Florida for places offering more work or taking jobs that pay less.

Construction permits across the region were down as much as 66 percent in recent months, and with 50 percent of Southwest Florida's construction industry staffed by Latinos, the shift is likely to have a big impact on that industry and perhaps the region's general economy.

The impact goes beyond construction companies to rental managers and shops catering to Latinos.'

Up to this point in the article, I keep seeing the word, "Latinos" mentioned, but nothing about their residential status. Then this.

'"The majority of us here are illegal," said Benjamin Ramirez, a 34-year-old framing subcontractor from Bradenton, who has worked in the United States illegally for about eight years. " For us, when the work is gone, it's just no more."'

So, what are the options for this "silent workforce"?

'Many Latinos are moving to other areas, such as Louisiana and other Gulf Coast states where residential construction is still strong.

At the same time, lower-paying jobs in agriculture, food service and retail are reclaiming workers as they wait out the construction downturn.

About six weeks ago, Ramirez was called to a meeting with Lennar Homes, the big Miami-based developer and the biggest home builder in Southwest Florida.Ramirez, who had subcontracted for Lennar for three years, was told there would be no more work.'

And as predicted here, the loss of jobs for these guys is not being reported. Because, then the employers would have to admit they were breaking the law this entire time.

'Though the overall unemployment level has remained relatively unchanged in Florida, unemployment claims in construction have risen 63.37 percent since June.

That measure greatly underestimates what is going on because of the vast number of undocumented workers in the sector and its heavy reliance on subcontractors.

"Many of these workers may never have been included in the jobs figures," said Mark Vitner, a Wachovia Bank economist, who focuses on the Southeast. "Many may be working as independent contractors and still have jobs but just not be as busy."'

And the personal tale of the Ramirez subcontractor is very interesting.

'The best documentation of what is happening comes from the workers.

Benjamin Ramirez and his 31-year-old brother, Ricardo, said construction jobs in Southwest Florida have evaporated.

"Last year was nice. Everybody had a job. And there were a lot of houses to build," Ricardo Ramirez said. "This year there's no work."

The brothers came to the United States about eight years ago from Toluca, a congested industrial suburb of Mexico City, known as Mexico's Detroit because it is home to DaimlerChrysler, Nissan, General Motors, BMW and Mitsubishi plants.

They learned the construction trade on the job in Indiana, and moved to Southwest Florida three years ago.

Together, they formed The Brothers Ramirez Construction Co. of South Florida. They built up a base of 60 full-time independent contractors and began working with Lennar

With the downturn, the brothers thinned their crews to a handful of close friends and immediate family.

One crew went to Indiana, one crew went to Miami and one crew went to Tampa," Ricardo Ramirez said. "Others wait. They are sleeping on the couch or playing soccer -- not much of anything -- until there's more work."'

And surprisingly, enforcement of illegal labor laws had a banner year in 2006.

'Last year, employers and workers saw unprecedented enforcement of immigration laws, with more arrests for immigration violations at job sites nationwide than any other period in recent memory

Add to that new rules from Homeland Security designed to prevent employers from hiring undocumented workers, by checking for mismatched Social Security numbers. Employers are now becoming leery.

Wendy Smith, an attorney with employment law specialist Fisher & Phillips, knows why. Her firm began counseling clients about six months ago to be cautious in hiring decisions. Picking up an undocumented worker carried the threat of criminal charges

"We told our clients, 'You have to tighten up and get your house in order,'" Smith said. "We said, 'You know what? This is coming. And with the no-match letters, it's going to be: You can run but can't hide.'"'

And what's happening in these immigrant communities when the jobs have dried up?

'Property managers and owners in Southwest Florida catering to Latinos have been hit with unexpected vacancies

About 25 percent of the 1,400 units that Harvey Vengroff owns are rented to Latinos, and he has more than 40 vacancies

"I'm getting a lot of stories. It's really a very different world than it was last year," said Vengroff, also the owner of one of the world's largest collections companies, Vengroff & Associates. "Last year, people had more money because there were plenty of construction jobs".

Evictions are up.

"We have a huge problem of people who are nice people, but they are taking in other family members. And we are evicting them. It's not because they are not nice people. It's just not conducive to having a good neighborhood," Vengroff said.'

Full Article


gordo nyc said...

In the previous thread, it was reported that Naples Realtors will stop sending their monthly sales data to the Flordia Assoc of Realtors for upload into the FAR statewide sales report. I sent NABOR an email and they replied.

From Gordo NYC:

Just a short note to say I think your refusal to submit sales data to FAR like almost every other market causes me think you motives are less than pure. Henceforth anything I read about Naples RE generated by your organization will be viewed with suspect caution.


I'm sorry that you think this. What is it that made you think that the Naples Area Board of REALTORs does not send data to the Florida Association of REALTORs? -

My Response:

Dear Chris:

I read the papers. That’s what makes me believe you are cooking the books. I did not say NABOR wasn't sending data to FAR; I said you weren't sending your data like the rest of the FL markets were. Your group decided to withhold data from FAR and to do their own reports about market conditions in the area.

In plain English, your professional association is attempting to cook the books. How stupid do you really think the public is? You are trying to produce your own reports which skew the downside of reality of current SFH sales prices. Its called cooking the books. Plain and simple.

As if to validate your ruse, you further attempt to denigrate the current FAR report as providing only “bits and pieces of information.” Why do you have to stonewall the public? Because the current sale price numbers make Naples appear overpriced (which everyone knows is true) which is a negative for your member Realtors and their business prospects.

However, the joke is on you and NABOR because in trying to adjust the perception of Naples RE, you have brought national attention to your actions. The overwhelming response is that of suspicion. People who are interested in accurate data collection are wise to this type of gimmickry.

In the final analysis, people will forget about the sales data and simply remember that Naples has a group of Realtors who can't be trusted to tell the complete and honest truth. Too bad for you.


CRAZY G said...



Do you get paid with illegal money???


CRAZY G said...

I ""GATHER"" that SKB ||FORGOT|| to tell Lizzie Brain ...NOT.. to paste!!!

lizziebeth said...
thanks for the comments on the business weekly blog. I was getting hammered. Those bubble deniers were frustrating me! I said some things that I shouldn't have, but their stupidity caused the keyboard to go at warp speed!

Great site and much needed! The Housing Bubble blog is getting too big(and slow). I now scan it just for Florida headings. I need to send Ben Jones a check though. What a great service/entertainment he has provided! The business weekly is too slow for posting, but I'll keep posting there as long as some idiot tries to convince others that there is no housing bubble in Florida! Hey, if you get a chance, would you reply to Pamela your thoughts on the 1,000 people a day moving to Florida. there is no way that statement could be true!

Check out these articles for how expensive Florida is getting for most folks! Some suggestions for future blogs......,0,5895107.column?coll=sfla-business-headlines

I have found this topic interesting! Why would the developer be so desperate to sell this land to the county? why would the county be willing to pay this guy so much more money than he paid. don't they know there's no longer the demand?

12:42 PM, September 18, 2006



gordo nyc said...

I have followed the "thousand per day" topic for a awhile. It is based in fact on census data. However, many of us have questioned the actual number as being too high.

The most recent discussion I heard was that originally there was a 1400/mo. gain with 400/mo. loss, for a net of 1,000.

Now I heard there is a new formula of 1500/mo gain w/ a loss of 600/mo for a net of 900/mo.

I have never been able to ascertain the source of numbers other than the original US Census data, which is sourced to 1999 headcounts.

CRAZY G said...

Gordo nyc reply:

If Lizzie Breath moves 'out', like she has promised, and SunKissed Brain moves 'in' like she has promised, it would be a net ZERO, like they are!!!

Numbers are FUN, when you can't add or subtract!!!

CRAZY G said...


What is it that Lizzie Breath could have said, that irritated SO MANY!!!!
Was she throwing stones at glass McMansion???

lizziebeth said...
thanks for the comments on the business weekly blog. I was getting hammered. Those bubble deniers were frustrating me! I said some things that I shouldn't have, but their stupidity caused the keyboard to go at warp speed


CRAZY G said...

Crazy G thinks, that the REAL problems, extranious of housing are just begining.....
For the construction workers, that do not opt, to go back to Mexico, will in all probablity, end up on the welfare's true...

BUT, what diff, if they're white, black, or latino...
Our system provides services to the needy whom ever they are....

Admittedly, out welfare system, IS, over-burdened, and in dire can say that about Medicaid, Medicare, Soc. Sec. or any social program...
""THIS"" is a story for another topic, on another blog, of another crises in Florida.....


CRAZY G said...

Well, here's what Dick Picard, a Realtor in the Daytona Beach area had to say;

This area saw escalating home values for about the past three years with increases as high as 34% in a single year. Prices began to stabilize toward the end of 2005 and have seen a downward trend in 2006, especially in higher priced homes. The market in the $200's is now seeing the most activity although there are now good values in the higher price ranges.

Prices continue to stabilize as we enter 2007 but inventories remain high. The Daytona Association of Realtors reports that, through November 2006, there were 19,504 new listings compared to 12,704 a year earlier. So, there are still many homes for Buyers to choose from and some good values can be found.

Some home builders have been offering very good deals on their new construction homes. Significant price decreases have been noted at KB Home's Bayberry Lakes subdivision across from LPGA. Also, ICI has been offering some incentives on new construction homes as well. One builder, however, has begun raising prices on a new development in North Ormond Beach. New construction homes were starting at $340's last month and are now starting at the $400's. It will be interesting to see what impact, if any, this may have in the area.

Crazy g said...

Question for NEXT WEEK???

Would you consider private auctions manipulated when the seller holds back the sale on defference to sheriffs this;

The News Press reports from Florida. “Property owners hoping for a quick profit left disappointed Friday as bids were low during the first day of a land and home auction in Fort Myers, where 68 residential and commercial lots were on the block.”

“Ariel Crespo put two lots in the auction. He had both listed on the MLS for more than $60,000. The bids came in at $22,500 for each. Both lots were off water in northwest Cape Coral. ‘I just won’t take a bid that low,’ said Crespo. ‘That’s just way too low.’”

“‘I’d say they will be lucky to get 10 percent of the sellers to accept bids,’ said Cape Coral resident Jim O’Day. ‘I wanted at least $145,000 minimum.’”

“Two other lots, desirable because of their size at 11,934 square feet, and waterfront location on the Caloosahatchee River, drew bids at half of their $799,900 listing price.”

“Despite the low bids at Friday’s lot auction, Cape Coral’s Ginnie and David Ward remain optimistic about the sale of their home in the auction today. Their three-bedroom, waterfront home in Cape Coral with deep-water canal and easy access by boat to the Gulf of Mexico lists on the Lee County Property Appraiser Web site at $862,410.”

“‘The auction today (Friday) was full of speculators,’ Ginnie Ward said. ‘The auction Saturday will have more end users, people who want a great home. That’s a big difference

Anonymous said...

SW Florida auction results. A huge auction in Lee county where 120 properties were up for sale. Notice the property featured in Friday’s article of 777 Coral Dr. Highest bid, $525k, Value $862k, HA HA.

Here’s a sampling of how bids compared to property values set by the Lee County Property Appraiser’s Office
• Single-family home, 5252 Nautilus Drive, Cape Coral: Bid $385,000. Value $690,000.
•Single-family home, 2706 SW 54th Terrace, Cape Coral: Bid $400,000. Value $255,810.
•Condominium, The Greens in Estero: Bid $120,000. Value $163,000
•Single-family home, 717 Polk St., Fort Myers: Bid $85,000. Value $76,820
•Fifth-floor condominium, Tarpon Landings, Cape Coral: Bid $400,000. Value not available for new condo. Sale price $702,000 last October.
•Condominium, 610 Victoria Drive, Cape Coral: Bid $225,000. Value $175,000.
•Single-family home, 1115 Enrique St., Lehigh Acres: Bid $150,000. Value for land $40,300. Building permit value for home $238,890
•Single-family home, 2372 Bay Breeze St., St. James City: Bid $425,000. Value $465,380.
•Single-family home, 777 Coral Drive, Cape Coral: Bid $525,000. Value $862,410
•Single-family home, 5237 Seminole Court, Cape Coral: Bid $390,000. Value $596,680

Anonymous said...

What about all the poor McMansion owners who need cheep illegal housekeepers, nannies, gardeners, landscapers, maintenance workers, etc. Things overgrow and fall apart very quickly down here, because of the weather. When the higher paid illegal construction workers leave the state due to less construction work, they take their housekeeper wives, and their extended family members doing this kind of cheaper work, with them.

What are all the McMansion owners to do? Take a look at Google Earth, and see for yourself, the enormous amount prime real estate there is in this state, that needs to be serviced by cheep illegals. Perhaps this is why the wealthy people lobby so hard to keep illegals flowing in this country. I feel sorry for them. NOT!

CRAZY G said...

Well, your talking about 'cheap' mexican labor here...

So let's do some cost figuring..

Congress just passed the bill to increase minimum wage to $9.25/ hr [?]...then you got to pay 7% SS...unemployment , workers comp, & throw in a mark-up for being a business manager....

So by the time your done, Mr. McMansion has to pay somebody ""MIN $25.00/hr to cut his lawn""
Let's see x 2000 hrs, that's $50K a year....But Mr. Mexican needs can't cut those high hedges, by now we got 2 guys....and we're up $100k a year to cut your lawn....

Do I feel sorry from him, that he's paying $50K a year for each man to work on his yard!!!!

"""YES, I DO""

CRAZY G said...


Breaking News For Monday 1/22/07

It Certainly looks like Floridans are going to have a bill coming out of Tallahassee...""TODAY""

The Politicans ""SAVED"" SOMETHING..only time will tell what it is/was


Deal for rate relief in place
By S.V. Date

Palm Beach Post Capital Bureau

Monday, January 22, 2007

TALLAHASSEE — Pushed by a new governor who promised lower insurance rates, lawmakers Sunday reached a deal they said does exactly that: at least 25 percent for customers of private insurers in their windstorm premiums, and 5 percent to 20 percent for those of state-run Citizens Property Insurance Corp

The ""BEST QUOTE"" was from Congressman Gelber:

|||Gelber acknowledged that the changes also depend on the state avoiding a major hurricane in the coming year. "The problem is, if we have a hurricane, it's going to take the house of cards down," he said|||||

CRAZY G said...


Well, here's news story confirming his suspicions.....

The number of vacant homes for sale nationally jumped more than 30 percent in the third quarter from a year earlier, to 1.9 million homes, the latest data available from the U.S. Census Bureau show. That's about half of all single-family homes on the market, said Michael Carliner, vice president of economics for the National Association of Home Builders.

More than a third of those - 825,000 - are in the southern region of the United States, which includes Maryland.

"The share of vacant for-sale is unusually high, compared to anytime in history, really," Carliner said. "Over the past few years, total housing production has been beyond what the underlying fundamentals would indicate."

Local real estate agents say the surge in unoccupied homes is apparent across all price brackets in the market.

"A lot of people are calling me concerned; they're carrying two mortgages and that's not fun," said Frank Lanham, a Coldwell Banker real estate agent based in Fells Point. Nearly half his listings are unoccupied houses.

The pileup of vacant homes becomes a factor in market dynamics, putting more pressure on prices and, short-term, prolonging the slump.

"The longer homes for sale remain vacant, the more desperate on average become the sellers," said Anirban Basu, an economist who is chairman and chief executive of Sage Policy Group Inc. in Baltimore. "The growing number of vacant homes means more sellers out there are ready to be realistic about the market to drop prices."

jayz said...

That was a beautiful letter you wrote to those turds from Naples Realtor Org. Keep up the pressure - they're a bunch of lieing scam artists and they know it.

Anonymous said...


I saw the Naples article and had the same reaction as you. I've looked at the stats published by any of the realtor associations with suspicion, but Naples RE brought home the point that they can't be trusted at all. Great letter you wrote. I believe you are correct that folks will remember what the Naples assoc. did. When I next look for a house to buy, I will require facts to support everything I am told. I will not believe the realtor on anything.

ft lauderdale said...

Great job Gordo, I don't think realtors should be the ones collecting the information on sales prices etc, and I don't like the idea of yet another gov. agency doing it either, What do you guys think? should the mortgage companies begin compling the data? municipalities? Who would benefit and has access to quality data?

CRAZY G said...

Crazy thinks it's going to take 5 years to really figure out what the legislature just did:

Here's a list of 'key elements' as supplied by the Palm Beach Post

FL - Paradise Lost said...

Crazy - great article about the # of homes that are vacant. The key: HALF of all houses for sale are empty. That is a very telling figure.

Is it possible to do your great links and news without being mean to our other posters?

Keep on, keepin' on.

CRAZY G said...


People have used 'labels' all the time....

Whether your talking about kraut-heads, cheese heads, whoaps, [n-word], chickcano's, pollocks, liberals, or conservatives

Calling somebody a 'prune brain',

""BUT"" tell them to grow-up....


CRAZY G said...


I think you need some comments from people with a legal, or insurance backgound to weight in on this new legislation...


The legislature may tell you what you can do...then you read your mortgage , and it may say you can't....

SSOO!!! How does all that playout, in the real world!!!

CRAZY G said...

Here's a real cool web-site..

It'll tell you how many houses are listed in your city, and the prices/quantity for each price range....

CRAZY G said...

Interesting article today in USA TODAY, about the amount of debt, recently retired, and baby boomers are carrying....
The untone of the article, doesn't give much credence to the belief the baby boomers are on the way to save us here in Florida...


Seniors in and approaching retirement — such as the oldest baby boomers — are carrying "debt loads that their parents would not have considered," says Sally Hurme of AARP, the advocacy group for people 50 and older. "This does not bode well for financial health."

Unmanageable debt is forcing some older people to delay retirement. It's nudging others already out of the workforce back in. And it's causing a record number of seniors to seek bankruptcy-court protection

As the first wave of the 79 million baby boomers begins retiring, debt problems are likely to swell. "People are having their cycle of expenses later in life," because they're postponing marriage and children, says Deanne Loonin, a staff attorney at the National Consumer Law Center. "They're resolving expenses later."

CRAZY G said...

Has the new insurance law got you by the tail, and you're going around in circles???? IS THAT WHAT YOUR PROBLEM IS???

Well!! The NEW deal is that insurance companies buy re-insurance from the State of Florida, and when they come back to the State of Florida, to get money [because of losses], then the 'GREAT' State of Florida, will GET THE MONEY FROM ""YOU"", it's citizens.....

CRAZY G said...

Hre's the story by the Sun Sentinel:


Premiums may fall, but all bets are off if catastrophe strikes

Jason Garcia and John Kennedy
Tallahassee Bureau

January 23, 2007

Floridians have more reason than ever to hope for quiet hurricane seasons.

As long as the state dodges any major storms, homeowners will see their insurance rates cut by a statewide average of more than 20 percent.

But if the state is ravaged as it was in 2004, everyone can expect to pay more.

Here's a primer for understanding the risks and rewards of the insurance-reform package approved Monday by the Florida Legislature:


The plan: More than double, to $32 billion, the amount of deeply discounted backup insurance, or "reinsurance," that the state sells to insurance companies.

Pros: This would save companies from having to buy increasingly expensive private reinsurance. And it means that the industry would be better protected from huge losses if a Katrina-like hurricane or a series of major storms hit the state, as happened in 2004 and 2005. Claims for those years totaled $36 billion; the state's reinsurance, or "CAT," fund paid $6.5 billion. Under this bill, the CAT fund could be obligated to pay out far more than that. Backers say this will result in rate cuts to homeowners ranging from 5 percent to 40 percent, averaging about 22 percent statewide.

Cons: The CAT fund gets its money primarily from insurance companies -- about $1 billion this year. One big storm could easily wipe it out -- and in fact, the fund ran out of money after the storms of 2005. To replenish it, the state sold $1.5 billion in bonds, being paid off by a 10-year surcharge of $10 per $1,000 of insurance premium for most property-casualty policies, including auto insurance. Critics say a truly catastrophic storm could force sharply higher assessments on all Floridians.

No rate hike

The plan: Eliminate the 56 percent average rate hike about to go into effect for customers of Citizens Property Insurance Corp. and delay for at least a year a 12 percent to 21 percent average increase that began Jan. 1.

Pros: Customers of government-run Citizens, many of whom live along the state's hurricane-vulnerable coastlines, have seen their rates skyrocket after Citizens fell nearly $2.25 billion short of being able to cover its claims in 2004-05. This gives them a reprieve.

Cons: Because so many Citizens policyholders live in high-risk areas, this rate freeze increases the odds that everyone else will be charged to bail out Citizens. After the 2004 and 2005 hurricane seasons, all homeowners policies paid surcharges totaling $205 million to help pay Citizens' claims, while the state put in $715 million in tax dollars. The new bill extends those surcharges to other property-casualty policies, including auto. Critics also argue that holding Citizens' rates too low encourages risky behavior -- particularly building on the coast.


The plan: Make Citizens more competitive. Allow it to sell more-profitable lines of insurance -- including fire, theft and other perils -- in addition to hurricane coverage in so-called "high-risk" zones along the coast. And eliminate current requirements that Citizens charge the highest rates in the state and that its policyholders must switch to any private insurance company that offers to insure them, no matter what the rate.

Pros: Profits from less-risky lines of homeowners insurance such as fire and theft will allow Citizens to lower its rates even further. When combined with a handful of other changes, lawmakers predict Citizens will be able to roll back its 2006 rates by an average of just over 18 percent. And, they say, this will force private insurance companies to offer more competitive rates.

Cons: Critics say these changes will further balloon enrollment in Citizens -- already the largest property insurer in Florida with 1.3 million policyholders with property valued at about $378 billion. Opponents also predict that Citizens won't ever charge adequate rates because of political pressure to keep rates low, increasing the odds that a bailout will be required.


The plan: Allow homeowners to select higher deductibles in exchange for lower premiums; choose to cover the structure of a home but not its contents; or decide to go without hurricane coverage entirely.

Pros: Backers say this will help people who are struggling to afford the price of insurance. The less coverage they buy, the lower the cost.

Cons: People who choose too high a deductible or too little insurance won't have enough money to rebuild if their homes are damaged by a hurricane. Critics fear that taxpayers could ultimately wind up footing the bill for their rebuilding. Finally, many people may not be able to take advantage of these options because the banks that hold their mortgages won't allow it.,0,4352171,print.story?coll=sfla-business-headlines

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