A recent poll conducted by the St. Pete Times shows that nearly 1 in 3 residents of the Sunshine State have seriously considered moving out of the state, due to high insurance costs and property taxes.
I find this interesting, but what about the highest cost of all: the cost of purchasing a home, particularly one that is declining in value? My feeling is that the amount of money you could lose/overspend on the actual purchase price far outweighs the variability in taxes and insurance.
Topic for discussion: Do you know of anyone who has moved recently or is planning on moving out of Florida? If so, please provide details on their housing situation here.
Full link to Article: 1 in 3 Seriously Considering a Move out of Florida
35 comments:
3 couples I know, all want to leave Florida, all for different reasons.
- 1 couple wants to get closer to family.
- 2nd couple likes Florida, but thinks the housing is a ripoff.
- 3rd couple doesn't like the direction the state is going in (all the political candidate commercials right now talk about lowering taxes/insurance costs, but no talk of how they're going to pay for such freebies.
-> 2nd and 3rd couples are renting - waiting to finish leases before moving on.
-> 1st couple bought a new house in early 2005. Problem now - they're competing with the builders on price, and comp sales are screwing their ability to sell.
Most everyone else I know bought their homes before the bubble, and are milking the SOH exemption accordingly.
I read a 'letter to the editor', in the Daytona News-Journal, this Sunday....
Seems a condo owner over on the beach was complaining about his HIGH taxes here in Daytona/Volusia cnty....He's got a 1 bedroom condo,and NOW is being assessed $4700....
Apparently he splits his time between Florida, and Tennessee, where he's got a 4 bdrm, 3 bath home, on which he pays $1200 taxes
....
In the article he says he would like to sell it...
>>>"BUT""<<< he knows NOBODY would buy it with that kind of a tax on it....
It gives new meaning to the phrase, being "STUCK BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE"
In the long run, I would suppose that anything will sell, "IF" the price is right...
SSOOO!!! Maybe, Just maybe, the price would "supposedly" need to be cut in 1/2 or something like that.....Then he could make his retreat to Tennessee....
Co-worker got a good job offer (out of state) last spring. She and her husband made a "no contingency" bid on a new house in their new locale. Amazingly, they were able to sell their FL home, a week before moving in June, for over $100K profit, after living here for only 3 years. Talk about taking advantage of the market!
Continuing the tale: the person who bought it was a realtor-investor, who ALSO bought it with no contingency on his existing residence - he was certain he could sell it. It's now been 5 months, and this guy has been making payments on both places.
Morale of the story: The runup in prices has been a zero-sum gain. For every success, there is someone else left holding the bag.
Look who is out pimping again.
http://www.wealthtrack.com/
""PLEASE""...Consuelo Max has ____________ALWAYS_________
been a heart throb of mine....since way back when????
I often wondered what happened to her....and "IF" I still had a chance!!!!
Maybe, "JUST" maybe she would like an interview with 'Crazy'...clothes optional of course!!!!
My wife and I are leaving Tampa, Florida as soon as we can sell our house. We plan on pricing way below market value just to get out. The storm is just starting down here. We have been here four years and with insurance costs and hurricanes, etc.it just isn't worth it anymore. If it gets as bad as predicted lots of companies will go under. We are going back to renting. After reading all the scandels about misuse of tax money by schools, etc I'm tired of giving them my money.
According to the "Telegraph" news paper, out of the UK....
They point out, that a study by the NY Federal Reserve, warning that the inverted yield curve of 30 basis points or more for 3 mos. or more leads to a recession in 12 mos......
WELL!!!! It's 29 basis points, and it's 3 1/2 mos.....
DO WE HAVE A RECESSION BAKED IN????
Crazy, thinks we're at the "Tipping Point"...and starting the slide down....>>>>>>>>TIME WILL TELL<<<<
My brother wants to retire in Florida but refuses to do so because of the high property taxes here. He says the tax milliage rate in most countys in Florida is twice what it is in California where he lives now!
We have to sell the family home that we inherited in the Jax area because the property taxes will jump four fold after the inheritance.
I own some small acreage in Marion County on which the taxes trippled this year. On top of that Marion County will require impact fees of almost TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS to be paid for a single wide mobile home on this property!
I have lived in Florida since the 1940s and have never seen such abusive property taxes before!
VOTE ALL INCUMBENTS OUT!
TAX REVOLT! TAX REVOLT!
I have (or had) a co-worker who moved here to Tampa with his wife and 2 daughters from Virginia 2 years ago. Town he came from was mid-sized, and his house there was fairly new - had to compete against the builders to sell it - which he did, but took a slight loss.
Entranced by the "buy now or be priced out forever" line of bs, he and his wife immediately turned around and had a new home built in New Tampa, closed in mid-2005. Got a pretty decent deal on it, but had a hell of a commute!
Then, his wife started getting homesick - not for Virginia, but for their homestate of Kentucky. Happily for them, he looked around for awhile and found a good job with family in the Bluegrass State, and moved this past summer.
Well guess what? They cannot sell their house in Tampa now. Again, they are competing against the builders, who are now offering incentives and discounts that they can't compete against. Besides, for the same price, would you want a new house or a "gently used" one?
Bad things happen to good people - especially when they get caught up in the hype.
talking about blanche you know one way blanche..rah rah rah blanche...you know RE lalala always go up blanche...
[[[[[ DENIAL IS THE STATE RIVER OF FLORIDA ]]]]]]]
>>>And WHY housing prices can drop 50% <<<<
""ALL"" the numbers I'm giving you are verified by ICI homebuilders website, or Volusia county property appraisor...
SSOOO!!! The story begins back in spring 2005, when ICI homebuilder commenced selling 80/90 townhouses in Plantation Bay [Volusia county]...Pre-construction prices were in vacinity of $150k...as the year progressed they increased their prices, and kept on building townhouses...by year end 2005..prices had advanced to $250-280K.....and sales began to slack off....they didn't stop building, and are just now completeing the last phase of construction.....
++++ PRICE = $290-$310K +++++
They currently have approx 25 townhouses for sale, in addition to the 'flippers' who have another 10 or so.....
So there are approx. 35 units sitting, accumulating taxes at $6000-7000/yr + HOA,+ Fl power & light, + water/sewer, + Home owners insurance....
YADA,YADA, YADA,......
We're talking $200/ sq. ft here...
||| UP || for $100/ sq. ft.....
This is going to end BADLY for some or all who bought into the bubble...
Back last summer [2005], before we got into the middle of this mess,
[Macro-economic event]....I wanted to know how much it costs to build a house????
So, I went to Toll Bros [Major upscale homebuilder] website, and check back into their 10K report with the SEC, which they have to file quarterly....These things are 80-100 pages long..devulging a lot of company business, etc...."BUT", you gotta wade thru it, to get the info. your looking for.....
WELL!!! Believe it or not...It actually costs Toll Bros. $76/ sq ft. just to build the house 'only'..They mark it up 50% to $115 sq ft for the house 'only'....then you throw in the land, and you got apprx. $150/ sq ft.....
THESE ARE 'NICE' HOUSES....for $150/sq ft...smallest of which they build is 3500/4000 sq ft....average sale price of Toll Bros house is $689,000 last quarter....
ICI homebuilders, that I referred to before, is charging $200/ sq ft...according to their website calculation....
IF YOU'VE EVER BELIEVED IN P.T.BARNUM'S GREATER FOOL THEORY,I THINK YOU'RE STARING DOWN THE BARREL OF IT IN THE HOUSING MARKET RIGHT NOW!!!!
Spot on, G. And with the prices of materials dropping like they are, they can really screw down on costs.
SSSOOO!!!
[[[[[ """" THE || BIG || QUESTION IS???? ]]]]]
When are the homebuilders going to break their pricing structure, and head for the exits....
I say, some time in the First Quarter 2007, ""BEFORE"" the snowbirds head North.....
"IF", they haven't got a name on the dotted line, by March, all hell is going to break loose!!!!
Very good point, G. When is Easter in 2007? Give it about 2 weeks after that, and you'll see some serious changes.
I just sold a studio in NYC for $279k. Moving to Palm Coast / Ordmond area. Will rent for at least a year. I am looking at unsold new homes bought by flippers who can't sell and want to mitigate 'some' of their cash expenses. Craigslist has a bunch for $1k per month and less. Taxes and insurance alone on these homes has to be almost half of my rent! I'll buy when the numbers get back to 2001.
Gordo reply:
"IF" you go to Palm Coast, you will be totally inundated with realestate.....
More than 2000 house for sale there.....
You can ""EASILY"" rent for $700-$900/mo. a very nice house.....
I personally don't care for the neighborhoods, with power lines hanging infront of your house, and swayles, of ditches holding somebody elses effluent....
""TICKYTACKY"" is the best description I could come up with.....
Gordo reply again;
For rental info; check
http://Brinkerhoff.info
Contagion, is nice word, that 'spreads' fear amongst builders....
They don't want the prices of these houses to tumble...PERIOD
They will do what ever they have to to keep their little game going......
As current /previous homeowners 'know', there are fixed & variable costs associated with owning a home....""" Builders Included"""..
SSOO!! The 'tricky Dick' balance becomes, when the costs associated with one, out-weight the cost associated with the other.....
At what point does the builder foresake "ALL"" his previous customers, and their faith, that they got a good deal, [when they bought their home]..And destroy property value, by cutting prices on existing inventory.....
>>>>Just remember what Robert Toll said, a couple short weeks ago....."""Real Estate has NO bottom""
Real Estate is an 'asset', like a stock, or a bond, etc...and as such is priced to market....
And in most cases, that is what somebody is willing to pay for it, at any given moment...
>>It doesn't have any value, ""IF"" somebody doesn't want it....<<<<
It certainly appears that right NOW, people are turning their backs on the Florida lifestyle, of fun in the sun, while somebody is cleaning out their pants pockets in the shade....
The SOLITARY item that matters the most:
|||| THE BOND MARKET IS INVERTED |||||
This solitary item will start the CONTAGION, and the whole deck of cards [debt] will fold!!!!!
>>> CONTAGION <<<
It's only a word, but look what it brings to the table...Wholesale auctions
[A Dallas company plans to auction about 75 foreclosed homes in Denver next month, a sign of the continuing high rate of foreclosures plaguing Colorado. Colorado foreclosure activity jumped 24 percent from the second to the third quarter, with 14,374 properties entering some stage of foreclosure, the eighth-highest foreclosure total in the nation.”
“Some local experts, including Kathi Williams, executive director of the Colorado Division of Housing, and Chris Holbert, president of Colorado Mortgage Lenders Association, question whether RealtyTrac’s numbers are accurate.”
“‘We are not trying to make the numbers worse than they are,’ Rick Sharga, a VP at RealtyTrac said. ‘But if I were representing a state-based mortgage lenders association or a state political entity of some sort, I would really want to downplay the numbers. But the numbers are what they are.’”
“Such auctions were common in the late 1980s, during the last foreclosure crisis. But in recent years, most of the auctions in the Denver area have been for expensive real estate rather than distressed properties.”
“‘Basically, they go to the highest bidder,’ said Dave Webb, co-owner of Hudson & Marshall. ‘They can be opportunities in a declining market,’ he said. ‘The lenders are motivated to sell.’”
“He said he expects to hold more large auctions in Denver as the market continues to worsen. He said that foreclosed homes aren’t the bargains they were in the late 1980s, although he said there likely will be opportunities at the auction to buy homes below the asking price. ‘Back in those days you could buy a HUD condo for $12,000,’ he said.”]
>>>The crunch hasn't even begun yet!!!<<<<
“Robert Stroh at the University of Florida, said the full economic impacts of Save Our Homes have yet to hit the state.”
“‘This could affect our population in the future,’ Stroh said. ‘Some people who thought about retiring here are probably having second thoughts: What are your taxes here? The answer to that is going to change dramatically. We’ve already got a problem.’”
OST (Off/Similar Topic) - I get the feeling that the stock market isn't going to be doing too well, once the effects of the housing flu spread throughout the economy.
As such, I just moved a quarter of my 401K into "Fidelity Investment Grade Bond Fund". Would like to have some fixed income security if the market takes another dump.
Let's see here once....
"IF" you're not working [don't have an employer]; you maybe considered 'self'employeed', even though you don't have any income [from not having a job]
>>>Kind of a catch 22<<<
((((( BUT ))))) You may qualify for a signicant loan any way!!!!
||||| I have firsthand knowledge of just how pervasive low lending standards have become. A friend of ours recently obtained a mortgage from Bank of America--presumably a lender with much higher standards than the subprime lenders we hear so much about. The loan amount was substantial--above $500,000--and my friend is self-employed--a situation which basically begs for tax returns or other verification of income.
So how much documentation does the cautious, careful Bank of America require for this mega-mortgage from a self-employed borrower? Nada. Zip. Zero. They did obtain a credit report, but that was all. My friend didn't even have to pay a visit to the loan officer. A few emails zipped back and forth and the Bank coughed up well over $500K--and threw in a $150,000 equity line of credit, just for good measure.
If this isn't analogous to Japan at the peak of their bubble, when lenders were throwing wads of cash at virtually anyone willing to sign on the dotted line, then what is? ||||||
RE: Palm Coast as a destination. I am actually looking in Ormond Beach to buy, but PC has a better rental market. Thanks for the weblink Crazy G. I keep everyone posted, either here or on Ben's site. gordo
Gordo,
You really have the right idea - just keep an eagle eye on the market - something tells me you're going to have a very nice place in the not too distant future - and you won't be crying about what you paid.
I Moved back to Central Florida ( Marion County)in june of 2005. I used to live here an after getting Married I talked my Wife into moving back. I followed the Real Estate market on the Web Religously and told MyWife We could move here and keep our Lifestyle as the cost of Living was actually the same as in Joplin Missouri. By the time we sold our House and got moved here, We find out Land had gone up 1000%, Median Home Prices had gone up 245% since 2003 Due to all the Speculators buying and Flipping Properties to the next Sucker. Then the County got in and Raised the Impact Fees ( The Fee You pay the County for the Priviledge toBuild a Home in their County ) from $1800
to 15,000 this January if You Hook up to water, $10,000 if You pay for Your own well and Septic, and Property Taxes went up 300% in just one Year for the Newbies. Oh and Insurance premiums went up 400% and My Auto Insurance went up 200%. The sad Part is if You look up on Websites about moving here they tell People about what the cost of Living was here Years ago. They don't tell People of the Impact Fees that they will Make You Pay and how You'll be charged up to 10 times more Property Taxes then The guy You bought the Property from was Paying. I think I should be able to Sue the Government for the False Advertising they put in the Media to get all the New Suckers to move here and pay for their Lifestyle. Every Day here now they come up with some New Tax and a way to Screw People out of their Money and they just Laugh and Say , it costs Money to live in Paradise. Paradise? Crappy Schools, No Infastructure, Crappy Jobs, High Crime, Horrible Traffic. It took me a year to get Internet Service in a Home i Mile from the Main Highway in a Development 40 years old. It makes it where I can't sleep at night thinking of what I got myself into by moving Here. My monthly expenses have went up over 400% and it keeps getting worse. I will tell anyone wanting to move here to Really Do Your Research which is hard because the Real Estate Profession and Media and Local Governments want You to come here and Make them MONEY! All You Rich Baby Boomers, Come On Dowm!
Anon,
Sounds like Marion Oaks or Sliver Springs Shores!
Our family is also unable to obtain High-Speed Internet via Cable or DSL. The house we are in is showing block separation... you can see through part of the block @ the kitchen window (house is 2 years old)... We are stuck Sat. TV that goes out if a Bug flies in front of the Dish and very poor land phone lines (we ended up having turned off, heck our cell phones get poor reception too).
We will be moving out of Florida in about 36 months; the enchantment of the Florida we had known before we left is only a Fairytale now!
Missie
Anon & Missie,
We've got the same story - moved here based on what the cost of living calculators were saying - that Tampa Bay was actually less expensive than Atlanta. HA - what a joke. I would say that, right now, the cost of living here is about 140% more expensive than Atlanta. The powers that be do NOT want out of staters to know that, so they allow the realtors to constantly under-report what it REALLY costs to live here. This is not paradise - just an overtaxed, overpriced sandbar with selfish liars running the place.
King of the Flies!
super...
We too had a home in the North Atlanta Area, a small town called Buford. We loved it! Taxes on our home & .79 acre lot were only $128 a year with our homestead exp.! Taxes are still LOW in many Many areas in GA and the cost of living IS lower there.
Also, we just sold a very nice, updated 1200 sq ft 75 yr old home on a city lot, in a nice town in OH for $75K and paid all closing costs, you can not find an out-house here in FL for that! Do not get me wrong, average jobs in the area that the home is located are just as plentiful and equal in pay as this area of FL, but housing is Realistic there, unlike here!
I have been in RE for years and I am appalled at what is going on here!
I say, if your neighbor puts up a for sale sign, EVERYONE in the neighborhood should (just to drive greedy sellers crazy and the prices down) hahahaha that is naughty!
Right on, Missie.
It's a dirty a little secret that no one will talk about: in relation to median incomes, Florida has the MOST EXPENSIVE housing in the country.
People are gradually waking up and seeing that. The market will correct itself - it always does.
The problem is the psychology of housing. During the tech bust, most of the losses were incurred by mutual funds who quickly cut their losses. However, this bust is going to take much l-o-n-g-e-r, because the real losses are being absorbed by individuals (investors and regular folks who have to sell). They will hold on till the bitter end, which could take years.
And remember, although the NASDAQ pulled out of it's dive about 2.5 years after the peak, it has now been 6.5 years, and it still has not come even close to returning to the peak.
We're only out of the starting gates on this decline. Sit back and enjoy the horror movie.
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